Texas Baptist Forum
Posted: 12/01/06
Texas Baptist Forum
BGCT follow-up
If our Baptist General Convention of Texas leadership is the best we have, God help us.
How can intelligent people interpret Robert’s Rules of Order by saying the Executive Board is above the convention itself, especially when the body is in session? Where is the Christian example from our leadership when they shut down a messenger who was given his rightful time to speak to his own motion, only to embarrass and denigrate him in front of the audience—especially when everything looked orchestrated?
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“I feel like an older groom who has been married before. I know what I’m in for, but I’m so excited about the honeymoon, I can’t think straight.” Robert Sloan At his installation as president of Houston Baptist University, reflecting on his 10-year presidency of Baylor University “If there are some who are concerned about the viability of the (National Association of Evangelicals), it’s based on their ignorance, not reality. … This is like a plane crash. When a plane crashes, you’re sad and it’s big news, but you don’t abandon the airline industry. You recognize that’s the safest way to travel.” “The problem is not the Quran or the Torah or the Bible. Indeed, I have often said that the problem is never the faith; it is the faithful and how they behave toward each other.” |
We lost monies in having parliamentarians who ruled with an iron hand and allowed no freedom of expression at all.
Jonathan Hernandez Sr.
Arlington
I hope Texas Baptists, and especially those in the BGCT, realize reducing their Cooperative Program giving in order to “send a message” to the Executive Board or executive director has a much broader impact on the ministries that are supported by those funds than it does on convention leadership. I’ve never agreed with that method of “getting the attention of the leadership.”
To suggest the messengers at the convention this year did not have the opportunity to express themselves in a democratic fashion is deceptive. The messengers very clearly and overwhelmingly defeated David Montoya’s first motion, which would have amended the constitution to give the convention the power to fire the executive director from the floor. Clearly 90 percent or more of the messengers voted against that motion.
Robert’s Rules of Order provides a way to over-rule the chair when a motion is declared to be out of order. If there were as much support for Montoya’s second motion as some suggest, I would have thought we would have visibly seen something during the convention to indicate it.
Lee Saunders
Houston
I’ve taken a wait-and-see approach to the Rio Grande Valley church starts issue, praying it was not true, and if it were, that it would be rectified suitably. After our BGCT annual meeting, I am disappointed and heartbroken.
After reading the investigators’ 42-page report, one phrase kept ringing in my head—“lack of subpoena power.” I can’t help but wonder if someone is trying to hide something in Dallas.
It is my understanding that Charles Wade now has the authority to decide whether or not he turns the investigation over to civil authorities. Why is it up to him? Why could we not decide this as a convention?
This will be a dark cloud over the BGCT until we see transparency from Dallas. We need a full investigation. If a crime was committed, it does not need to be covered up and leave a cloud of suspicion over our convention.
I love the ministries of the BGCT, but I do not put much trust in BGCT leadership. I hope I’m proven wrong. The Executive Board should take a stand and ask for civil authorities to investigate this matter fully.
Terry Williams
Childress
The Baptist convention in Texas has split several times before during the past 150 years—but not for godly reasons.
Members of the BGCT, let’s come together in this difficult time, not move apart. Watch our leadership and ask hard questions of it—even be outraged over the Valley missions matter; but please stop the talk of escrowing CP dollars or possibly walking away. Neither action can be justified.
Mature believers in growing churches know this and stay focused on accomplishing the Great Commission together. Let’s continue to be those Christians and those churches in Texas.
David Troublefield
Wichita Falls
Closed-door sessions are concern
I definitely agree with your editorial that the BGCT Executive Board needs to “restore the power of convention-determination—the vote—to convention messengers” (Nov. 20).
As a layperson at the convention, I did not sense that the majority of the messengers were concerned about that. It seems most important to me.
If the Executive Board and its staff cannot trust the messengers, how can the messengers trust the leadership? Closed-door sessions urgently convened reminds me of the work of another convention whose actions have been greatly criticized by Texas Baptists.
Letters from Todd Pylant and Jay Fleming (Nov. 20) indicate they understand the necessity of restoring confidence.
Nelda Weldon
Waco
Baptist Organization 101
I did not attend the Baptist General Convention of Texas annual meeting at Dallas, but from what I read and understand, some persons need a lesson on Baptist Organization 101.
The convention (messengers from participating churches) meet for two days to empower the Executive Board and the employed staff to carry on the business of the Convention. This is directed through the BGCT constitution. Please read Constitution Article VII-Executive Board.
They will be there when the gavel falls on the annual meeting.
H. Harold Brown
Port Neches
The good ol' boy syndrome
What must we do? We preach Jesus, we teach Jesus, but do we daily follow Jesus? We need repentance, true repentance, with our pastors, lay leaders and with the staff and board at the BGCT.
When God’s money is mismanaged and misused, then someone or someones must be held accountable. Charles Wade’s article “We will bring credibilty and integrity” (Nov. 20) is shameful and disheartning. It examplifies the good ol’ boy syndrome: “We do our business behind closed doors and/or give alot; get a lot.”
We, Texas Baptists, best wake-up, all is not well.
Jack Graham
Paris
Forgiveness a priority
In our day-to-day relationships, many situations arise that cause hurt and discord. We must get past the hurt or discontentment in order to forgive the offending party.
Jesus forgave man for their sins as he bore them on the cross. If Jesus can forgive all of mankind for their sins, you, too, can forgive the person that has deeply wounded you. Your spirit will not be free until true forgiveness is obtained. Many people carry around the burden of hurt and ill feelings for years, because they were deeply wounded by the actions of others or words from someone’s mouth.
My prayer for you is to free yourself from the shackles of carrying a load that is difficult for you to bear. Don’t let Satan ride your back. He can only ride your back when it is bent. Have you ever tried to ride the back of a horse when it was standing straight up? You can’t; it is very difficult to hang on.
If a professed Christian is wronged by another, he ought not complain of it to others, as is often done merely upon report, but to go to the offender privately, state the matter kindly, and show him his conduct (Matthew 18:15-20).
Bearing a heavy load is not a requirement for a child of the King.
Kimberly Eaton
Abilene
Thanks for Valley pastors and churches
While the fight against fundamentalism has taken place, many have actually forgotten the fundamentals of our faith in Jesus Christ. It would do us all good to read Philippians 2:5-11. Christ did not call us to riches but to right living!
At this time, an increasing portion of our state is Hispanic. Thank God for the pastors and churches in the Valley and in this state that know the mind of Christ.
Henry Adrion III
Hilltop Lakes
Shrinking love offerings
It is with a heavy heart that I reply to the letter titled “Entertainment centers” (Nov. 6).
The reason churches have begun charging for tickets to gospel concerts is there is no longer any “love” in love offerings. The national average at Southern Gospel events that merely take up an offering is $1.57 per head. Our church struck a somewhat higher average, but it still is a grievous embarrassment to hand a vocal group—who just sang their hearts out—a collection of dollar bills that will not even cover their gas to the event.
Would the letter writer care to invest in equipment, load it up, unload it and set up, sing for two hours, break it all down and cart it home for less than gasoline expenses when the same crowd never balks at paying $10 for a bag of popcorn and a soft drink at a movie theater?
It is a wonder we can get artists to come to our churches at all. They already are doing it practically for free, and then the pastor is assigned to hand them the discouraging news in the form of an ungrateful offering.
What a shame.
Steve White
Dallas
Blessed with fellowship
“Ministers battle feelings of being alone in the crowd” (Oct. 2) caused me to realize I am one of the most blessed pastors anywhere. I enjoy a supportive fellowship with two groups of pastors.
One is with fellow Baptist pastors in Frio River Baptist Association. We genuinely care for one another—celebrate success, support struggle, combine resources to extend God’s kingdom, and generally be on mission together as a body of churches. Though we represent two state conventions, BGCT and SBTC, we have placed denominational politics aside to know one heart in ministry.
The other is with pastors of various denominations who meet for prayer weekly in central Atascosa County. This “band of brothers” also knows no spirit of competition or conflict over “turf,” “sheep,” or “notoriety.” There is a “Kingdom of God” mindset rather than an interest in “promoting our brand.” We can share our struggles, knowing confidences will be guarded and genuine Christian love expressed. The churches in our county are stronger because the bond among several of its pastors is maintained.
Folks tell me what I enjoy here is rare. I have a friend planting a church in another part of the state who echoes the loneliness expressed in the article I read. I just wanted to say that there are some places where ministers are connecting with each other, and it is making a big difference. I am fortunate to live in one of them.
Bill Fowler
Pleasanton
Don't ignore Mormon beliefs
A daily newspaper announced, “Mormons are members of Christianity.” Many Mormons are outstanding people, accomplished, prosperous, moral and ambitious. Mormonism should not be a barrier to the seeking of high office in this land.
However, to state that “Mormons are Christian” ignores their beliefs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) has spent millions of dollars to be accepted as a part of Christianity, but what they teach places them outside of historical Christianity.
Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is a member of the Trinity; Mormonism teaches that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer (Satan). Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is God, not that he became a god through good works, as the Mormon Church teaches. Christianity holds that Jesus was incarnate through the virgin birth; the Mormon Church teaches that he was the product of a sexual union between God and one of his many “celestial wives.” The foundation of Christianity is that men and women, boys and girls, can be made suitable for heaven thought faith in Christ, not that they can become gods in their own worlds as taught by the Mormon Church.
In American, it is not necessary to pretend that we are all alike in order for us to cooperate in a pluralistic, democratic society. It is not necessary for us to ignore the teachings of Mormonism in order to affirm their right to believe as they do.
Larry Holly
Beaumont
Love endures
Growing up the son of a Baptist minister, I was taught that “God is love.” I am much older now, but still believe that God is love. No matter what one calls God—Jehovah, Allah or just God—one Creator, in love, made us all and the planet we inhabit.
To many, love is weak, wimpy, naive. But in reality, its strength is the missing ingredient in the world’s so-called pursuit of lasting peace. We citizens of the world are fooling ourselves if we believe we can love God and hate other people. Fear, hate, greed and pride lead to killing and war. God does not need or want anyone to kill in God’s name. What are the real reasons suicide bombers kill themselves and other people they don’t even know?
The clergy of every world religion should be preaching the good news of God’s love—the tie that binds all humankind. It is unloving pride that motivates people to think their religion, culture or race is superior to anyone else’s. Our differences cannot be resolved militarily. It behooves the world’s religious leaders to speak out and demonstrate God’s love by example. A hungry, dying world is crying out to be fed. Love is strength, endures and never fails.
Paul L. Whiteley Sr.
Louisville, Ky.
Joe Roper also inducted
An article recognized recent inductees into the Gospel Music Hall of Fame (Nov. 6). The article also listed names of several previous inductees.
I would like to add to this list the name of my brother, Joe Roper, a pianist who was inducted posthumously in Oct. 2005.
Joe was well known in the field of gospel music during a long career of performing and teaching. Among his pupils was Floyd Cramer of Grand Ole Opry fame. He was pianist for the original Stamps Quartet and performed at the 1936 Texas Centennial State Fair.
His induction was proudly and quietly observed in our family but was little heralded outside the family circle. The author of your article had no way of knowing this, but I offer it in honor of Joe’s memory.
Cecil Roper
Fort Worth
Give God everything
I read with interest your editorial on tithing (Oct. 16). You hit the nail on the head when you said we should give God everything, since he owns it anyway. If pastors would preach this doctrine from the pulpit rather than the legalism of tithing, giving would increase.
The Scripture that comes to mind is Mark 13:41-43, where Jesus and the disciples are watching the people put their money into the temple offering, and a widow came and put in two small coins as compared to the large sums that the Pharisees were placing into the box. Jesus remarked: “Look, guys! This poor widow gave more than any of the rest. The rich only gave what they did not need. She gave all she had.”
This is what God wants us to do. He does not need our money. As you say, it is his anyway. God’s kingdom will always go forward.
Lealand Dean
Denton
Emphasize making disciples
Over the years, I have read many books that, in one way or another, describe “the purposes of the church.” Some list them in very attractive and alliterative terms. Unfortunately, all I have read are wrong in at least two ways.
First, they make evangelism and discipleship two separate purposes of the church. There is no biblical justification for this separation. Jesus said we are to “make disciples.” He never said we are to get people to make a profession of faith and then measure our effectiveness by the number who do and who are then are baptized.
Second, they are wrong in that they always omit any kind of purpose that could be described as being related to a kingdom vision (missions, if you please). The primary emphasis is on growing bigger churches, not on going into all the world and building the kingdom.
There are several reasons for this approach.
First, we have allowed ourselves to be seduced by the business model of success—bigger is better. And, we Baptists have come to measure our “success” by the three “B’s” of baptisms, budgets and buildings. This is evidenced by the way we affirm pastors, churches and ministries. Bigger, we say, always is better.
Second, we have allowed some well-meaning Baptists of the past to emphasize the local church in nonbiblical ways rather than affirm our connectedness as members of the body of Christ. (Think of those who have said a believer can observe the Lord’s Supper only in the local church where he/she is a member.) The first group of believers “devoted themselves … to the fellowship” (Acts 2:42). Just as the Israelites of the Old Testament had corporate relationships that required corporate responsibility (see Joshua 7, for example), believers of today have responsibility for and to each other as members of the body of Christ. We are saved one at a time, but when we are saved, we become members of those who were described for some 10 to 15 years after Pentecost s “people of the way,”—disciples or followers of Jesus Christ, not just members of a “church” that meets in a particular place. Many churches today would benefit by teaching believers their kingdom responsibility as well as their local church responsibility.
Maybe the article “Baptizing and making disciples” (Nov. 13) can help us begin to emphasize “making disciples” and thus have a more biblical approach to fulfilling the Great Commission. I suggest we take note of the fact 20 percent of American adults now worship in “house churches” (Aug. 7, 2006, p. 9). I also suggest reading Revolution by George Barna.
The future of Christianity is bright because young adult believers are committed to being what they call “authentic” disciples and have little or no interest in what appears to them to be a “performance” described as “worship.” I hope we all can move toward emphasizing “making disciples” as Jesus instructed us to do.
Lewis E. Lee
San Antonio
Roberts Rule of Order not utilized
Excellent editorial on how Baptist churches affiliated with the BGCT will exercise their voting over the next year (Nov. 20).
I would like to point out one thing about the out-of-order motion proposed during the last session of the annual meeting. When the president ruled the motion out of order, no one appealed the ruling of the chair. Robert’s Rules of Order allows the body to correct the chair any time the body believes the chair has ruled inappropriately. It requires a super majority to overturn the chair, but it could have been done. Not even the maker of the motion appealed the ruling.
Had I disagreed with the ruling, I would have done it.
I think this shows one of two things: (1) a lack of knowledge of the most rudimentary processes of Robert’s Rules by most messengers or (2) a trust in the president and Executive Director Charles Wade that it did not need to be dealt by convention in session.
After the overwhelming defeat of the previous amendment I would tend to believe that the messengers showed they are willing (for now at least) to trust the Executive Board to oversee Cooperative Program money.
I agree with you: Contributions to the CP will ultimately determine if Baptists really believe in the BGCT.
W. Wayne Holder
Waco
Please God, not ourselves
Some additional factors should be considered by those who demean current worship music and styles. As a 50+-year-old who grew up singing the great hymns of our faith, I understand how some might feel that a great heritage is being lost. I, too, love to sing those great words and tunes that are hidden forever in my heart. I thank God for them!
We are engaged in a great cultural shift unlike any in the history of this country. We can’t stop it, but we are commanded by our Lord to “go and tell” in spite of it. Many local churches (I’m sure there are notable exceptions) who have kept “traditional” ways are declining in number and reaching few, if any, with the gospel.
If a large group of people from another culture moved into our community, I would hope that we would do whatever was necessary to reach out to them in a language and in a manner that honored their preferences. This is exactly where we stand today with regard to the unchurched among us. The church exists only to bring the lost to Jesus. Everything else we do should be in support of that singular mission. When we stand still because the next step might be uncomfortable, we are acting to benefit ourselves and with a complete lack of faith in the One who saved us!
The message will never change, but the way of reaching them with the message of hope must adapt to those outside the church. A huge group of unreached people never have seen anything in the local church to appeal to them. If we continue to isolate ourselves from them, we are in direct violation of the Great Commission. When we say to them, “Become like us if you want to know Jesus,” we are selfishly dooming them to an eternity apart from our loving Father.
Miraculously, God still gifts writers who pen songs that are reaching this new group. To call these songs “little sing-along choruses” is an insult to our great God who has inspired worship of him for scores of new believers. Wherever God is moving, we should be grateful. However people are being reached, we should be thankful.
Whether Fanny Crosby or B.B. McKinney or Matt Redman or Chris Tomlin wrote the songs is not the point. What matters is that God is reaching out to hurting people like he always has, and we should each discover how we should be a part of his work in the hearts of those around us.
It’s not about our personal preferences in music, preaching styles, seating arrangements or anything else. It’s about his saved people proclaiming the Good News so that everyone may hear! I’m excited to see what will happen in our world when more of God’s people seek to please him rather than ourselves.
Jerry Barker
Falfurrias
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