Posted: 9/02/05
Texas Baptist Forum
Signs of Jesus
In my congregation on any given Sunday morning, I can see at least two of the three indicators Mike McNamara offers up as evidence that Christian culture has been lost within the church: Some women wear hair styles shorter than men, and a few women have tattoos (Aug. 22). The saints in my congregation are too poor to afford breast augmentation surgery or–who knows –I might see examples of that, too.
Funny, though, until he mentioned it, I never realized the absence of those things indicated one's status as a Christ-follower. But I distinctly remember Jesus' saying the world would know us, instead, by how we love one another.
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"We have the ability to take (Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez) out, and I think the time has come to exercise that ability."
Pat Robertson Televangelist, on his 700 Club program
"The Southern Baptist Convention does not support or endorse public statements concerning assassinations of persons, even if they are despicable despots of foreign countries, and neither do I."
Bobby Welch SBC president and pastor of First Baptist Church in Daytona Beach, Fla., responding to Robertson (BP)
"Religious citizens have the same rights as nonreligious citizens to argue their side. But disagreement with those positions is not automatically anti- religious bigotry or hostility to faith."
Melissa Rogers First Amendment attorney and visiting professor of religion and public policy at Wake Forest University Divinity School in Winston-Salem, N.C. (RNS)
"The church is not the four walls. The church is like Home Depot. You go there to get what you need to return home and fix what's in disrepair."
Tom Fortson Jr. Promise Keepers president (The Tennessean/RNS)
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I've studied, taught and preached from the book of Acts. What I keep seeing as marks of the early Christian culture are things like devoting oneself to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship with other believers, being of one heart and mind within the church, sharing one's possessions with those in need, praising God, being filled with and empowered by the Holy Spirit, prayer, being in awe as God works his wonders within the body, and sharing the gospel with a world that desperately needs to hear it.
I thank God every day that those are the indicators I see in my brothers and sisters–so much so, in fact, that on most days I hardly notice the hairdos and the tattoos.
Pamm Muzslay
Pasadena
Gavel of justice
I would like to respond to two letters in the Aug. 22 Baptist Standard, “Danger of relevance” by Richard Berry and “Cultural decline” by Mike McNamara.
If this doesn't describe what is going on in our churches and society today, we are completely missing the point that the Holy Bible is giving to us for the life of the church and our lives.
I know there might be exceptions, but the outward appearance of a man or woman usually reflects the inward personality of that person.
I asked myself this question: Does the so-called “Christian rock music” performed by a group that call themselves Christians and look like the devil add any spirituality to a meaningful worship service (being conscious of the presence of God's Spirit)?
Don't let the beat of the so-called music lull you into subconsciousness that doesn't recognize God's presence.
Listen up, ye people on planet earth; the gavel of God's court of justice is about to fall, calling us to accountability.
George W. Luther
Chandler
Grace on a tightrope
Letters by Richard Berry and Mike McNamara (Aug. 22) decried the loss of identity in the church, one claiming identity has been sacrificed on the altar of relevance, another claiming women are to blame.
To the latter, I say surely men have contributed to a “loss of culture” as well. Also, all three of the characteristics listed apply only to outward, physical appearance and not to inward, character issues, in which Jesus seemed far more interested.
To the former, I affirm that relevance can indeed subsume identity. However, as Jürgen Moltmann stated in The Crucified God, Christianity always faces a double crisis of identity and relevance. We can consume ourselves with questions of identity so much that we no longer matter to the culture surrounding us.
Jesus spoke to two churches in Revelation that dealt with a different side of this coin. The Ephesians hated false doctrine, but they left their first love. Robert H. Mounce in The Book of Revelation suggests this meant they cared more about correct doctrine than loving one another. Little effort is required to find parallels in contemporary Baptist life. On the other hand, Pergamum had not defended enough against false teaching and had slipped into error.
As the people of God, Christians must walk a dangerous tightrope between identity and relevance, love and correct doctrine, and only God's grace makes that possible.
David Tankersley
Eastland
Child baptism
Roger Olson’s conclusion raised some interesting questions regarding baptism of children (Aug. 8).
He suggests not to baptize before 16 because the person is not ready to be a full voting member of the church. Is baptism an initiation process into a club or a symbol of a spiritual conversion? Maybe Baptists need to think in terms of membership differently. I’m sorry that he can barely remember his baptism. Many people I’ve questioned remember their childhood baptism as a wonderful spiritual experience.
His conclusion to wait until 16 because the person isn’t ready for serving on committees or becoming a deacon is strange. I know very few 16-year-olds who are ready. Maybe, we should raise the age to 25 or 30?
Susan Allen
Harlingen
Will SBC let "sleeping dog lie?"
Thank you for the article on Jimmy Carter’s admonishment against the exclusive practices of fundamentalists (Aug. 8). I wish I could have been there to hear Carter and to participate in the joyous celebration of diverse and friendly Baptists from around the world testifying to their one great common bond, Jesus the Christ.
Now that the Baptist General Convention of Texas has been granted official membership status with the Baptist World Alliance, how will the Southern Baptist Convention respond? Will the SBC pull away from the BGCT as well? For the SBC to be consistent with their convictions, it begs the question and examination of their current financial relationship and fellowship with the BGCT.
If a more definitive “split” between the SBC and BGCT is inevitable, as some predict, then let us pray that it’s done so peaceably and with irenic sensitivity. Although Paul and Barnabas parted from one another, they continued advancing the gospel of Christ. In so many ways both Paul and Barnabas have much for the SBC and Texas Baptists to observe. Their irenic parting may yet prove to be a model for the future relationship of the SBC and BGCT.
Will the SBC be consistent and remove their association with the BGCT? Or will money be enough for the SBC to continue to let this “sleeping dog lie.”
Christopher Breedlove
San Antonio
Ethics not situational
The first tenet of Humanist Manifesto I states: “Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.” Humanist Manifesto II states: “We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous and situational, needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest. To deny this distorts the whole basis of life.”
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment grants the same protection and limitations on “the religion of humanism as are applicable to other religions.” Justice Clark also stated, “The state may not establish a ‘religion of secularism’ in the sense of affirmatively opposing or showing hostility to religion, thus, preferring those who believe in no religion to those who do believe.” Yet many schools promote humanism by teaching character to the exclusion religious faith.
The Dallas Morning News reported, “Grand Prairie students scored more likely to lie, cheat, steal and bully others around than the national average,” but why? Adolph Hitler once said that you don’t have to tell people the truth. Just tell them a lie long enough and they’ll start believing it.
If we continue to allow our schools to teach character to the exclusion of religious faith, to teach that human life is an accident of nature, to teach situational ethics, while calling it character, then we should not be surprised when they think it is alright to lie, cheat, steal and bully others around. After all, they are just doing what they have been taught.
Larry Dozier
Grand Prairie
Does God have a hearing problem?
I agree with Richard Berry, the church is becoming a “cult of comtemporaneity” (Aug. 22). We hear so often the warning of a new pastor in a new setting: If the church does not change to the contemporary, it will die. We succumb to the relevance of a superficial spirituality that must believe that God has a hearing problem.
Berry’s observation is the best that I have read, and it needs to be repeated until it becomes a part of the spiritual nature of Baptist people.
Dale Geis
Norman, Okla.
Care for the body
The cover photo illustrating the “Bible goes to school” articles unsettled me. It is clear that the french fries are from McDonald’s. I think it is inappropriate to promote McDonald’s and fast-food eating.
I am a nutritionist and am involved in educating families about healthy eating practices. Most of us are aware of the disease of obesity that is rapidly growing in this nation. It would have been more beneficial to show a healthy food choice rather than the norm—fast food. We all learn and are affected by the examples we see in media. The example shown in the photo is a poor one.
Jesus encourages us to care well for our bodies. We are responsible to encourage others to do the same. I hope next time the photo of a similar article would be more carefully chosen.
Kirsten Granberry
Dallas
Robertson's comments and their effect on missionaries
Pat Robertson has called for the United States to assassinate the elected leader of another country. The Bush Administration has called his comments “inappropriate” and says Robertson is a “private citizen.”
Is Robertson only a private citizen? He is part of a group, referred to as the Christian Right, that takes credit for the re-election of George W. Bush in 2004.
His broadcasts are heard all over the world.
If assassinations of other world leaders were lawful according to U.S. law (and they’re not) and you agreed with Robertson that this is a good idea, should he make such a pronouncement all over the world?
The answer should be obvious. What is the effect on the safety of our citizens in other nations, especially Christian missionaries?
The Bush administration’ reaction to Robertson’s comments is more disturbing than the comments. We call on other world leaders to denounce terrorism, yet we respond in this lukewarm, mealy-mouthed fashion when a prominent member of the ruling party is guilty.
Carl L. Hess
Ozark, Ala.
Don't get between an individual and the Holy Spirit
Roger Olson stated that children should not be baptized until they are 16 years of age (Aug. 8). I strongly disagree.
I was enrolled in the cradle roll of Memorial Baptist Church in Temple when I was born. I sang my first solo, “In the Garden,” in church when I was 3 years old. During a revival service, I came from the front row back to where my mother was sitting and told her that I wanted Jesus to come into my heart. I was baptized when I was 5 years old. I started teaching 4-year-olds in Sunday school when I was 14 years old. I graduated from high school when I was 16 years old. I sang in the church choir and was a soloist many times. I have continued to be active in Baptist churches wherever we lived, serving as teacher, GA director, choir member, committee member, and am still teaching a Sunday school class at age 72.
What would my life have been like if I had been denied the opportunity to be baptized when the Spirit of the Lord spoke to my heart? I’m sure I would have greatly resented being told I was “too young.” Having the Lord in my heart was a great protection during my teenage years, because I took seriously the commitment I had made and tried to be the best Christian I knew how to be and therefore would not “go along with the crowd.”
Setting an arbitrary age for a child to be baptized seems to be placing man between an individual and the Holy Spirit. When a person accepts Christ, it is an event that should be celebrated and confirmed, not delayed and perhaps discouraged. I hope Professor Olson will rethink his suggestion and encourage all people to make a profession of faith when they feel led by the Holy Spirit, be baptized and grow in a fellowship of baptized believers.
Franciene Baker Johnson
Haskell
Carter's comments at BWA were childish
The article on Jimmy Carter (Aug. 8) reminds me why I left the moderate ranks of the Baptist General Convention of Texas. He labeled Southern Baptist Convention conservatives, as part of “fundamentalism characterized by rigidity, domination and exclusion.” He has a right to his opinion, but to parade him as a voice for Baptists is very disturbing.
Carter implies from Galatians 3:28 that females have equal access to any position of pastoral ministries. Yet the context of this passage refers to everyone having equal access to Christ. Positions of service, therefore, must be treated from other passages.
Southern Baptists have long recognized women in many areas of pastoral ministries. Women have served as chaplains, music ministers, children’s ministers, teachers, conference leaders and professors. It is that senior pastor role for women where most SBC conservatives draw the line in order to stay in line with the Scriptures as we interpret them. Calling us “authoritarian males” who “want to keep women in their place” is childish and perjurious to those who have a different standard for biblical interpretation.
Carter’s rhetoric attacks “fundamentalists” rather than allow them to interpret God’s word as they understand it. SBC conservatives want God’s word to say exactly what God meant for it to say. Carter wants it say whatever it needs to say at any given moment under any given cultural setting. If left unchallenged, this type of “Bible” study will only lead to driving a further wedge into the world of Baptists.
Johnnie R Jones
Blue Ridge
A great big family of Baptists
We were touched by Marv Knox’s editorial on the Baptist World Alliance (Aug. 8). He captured our feelings as disenfranchised Southern Baptists. The BWA was truly a taste of heaven.
But we weren’t the only ones experiencing the joy of unity with our worldwide Baptist family. We went to England from Ethiopia, where we serve as Texas Envoys with the BGCT Texas Partnership.
Traveling with us was Ermias Zenebe, the general secretary for Addis Kidan Baptists, a denomination of 63 churches that is a product of Southern Baptist work that began in 1967. As a result of SBC strategy changes, they have been on their own for the past seven years. At times, they became discouraged, but they kept trusting God and kept growing. Now they have applied to the BWA for membership.
Ermias Zenebe was overjoyed to meet and worship with so many Baptists from all over the world and to find such love and unity. He returned to Ethiopia with the message for his fellow Baptists that they are not alone. They are a part of a great big family of Baptists who love Jesus and each other, and their goal is to share that love in every corner of the globe.
Lauralee Lindholm
Desoto
Robertson example of need for separation of church and state
Pat Robertson, the millionaire businessman/politician/evangelist, wants our government to assassinate Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez. I am starting to wonder about the views of some “compassionate” conservative Christians. Their ideology doesn’t always coincide with the views of Jesus.
Jesus didn’t support assassinations, executions, torture or pre-emptive strikes. He believed in peace, love, forgiveness and the Golden Rule.
If you disagree, then ask yourself, “Who would Jesus assassinate?” Pat Robertson has just given us the perfect example of why our country needs the separation of church and state.
Chuck Mann
Greensboro, N.C.
Defense of the curriculum
The concerns of Mark Chancey and Ryan Valentine about the NCBCPS’s curriculum, The Bible in History and Literature, is not without merit. However, I would like to make a few observations.
First, Mr. Chancey and Mr. Valentine seem to offer conflicting criticisms on how the curriculum portrays the Bible in the public school classroom. On the one hand Mr. Chancey criticizes the curriculum for referring to the Bible as “the word of God”, while Mr. Valentine criticizes the curriculum for making “our Scriptures look trivial.” In my opinion, referring to the Bible as the word of God is by no means trivial.
Second, Mr. Chancey states that the whole reason for his opposition to this curriculum is “to make sure the Bible receives the respect and the treatment it deserves.” However, one must ask who should set the standard for the respect and treatment the Bible receives in the public school classroom? Should it be Mr. Chancey and other Biblical scholars? Should it be the conservative religious right? Should it be churches, seminaries, or religious schools? Or should it be the public schools in which the curriculum is being taught? Believe me, if all Christians insisted on the Bible receiving the respect and treatment it deserves in public schools, it would never make it. There would be too much controversy. The Bible would go the way of prayer in public schools. (Sad, but true.)
I hope that Mr. Chancey and Mr. Valentine have had a chance to read the revised edition of The Bible in History and Literature (August 2005). I have and I believe the revisions that have been made answer many of the concerns that Mr. Chancey and Mr. Valentine have. I found the curriculum to be completely objective it presenting its subject matter – a general survey of the Bible and its influence on world and U.S. history, literature, and the arts. I also found the curriculum to be non-sectarian by going out of its way in addressing the views of Protestants, Catholics, and Jews alike. The curriculum continually makes references to the Hebrew Bible/ Christian Old Testament and there is an entire unit dedicated to the history of the Intertestamental period and the literary influence of the Apocryphal books. In addition, the curriculum encourages the use of outside speakers to address certain subjects (i.e. using a Jewish rabbi to explain the role of the Torah in Jewish life and the meaning of certain Jewish holidays).
In the New Testament units, the curriculum presents the four gospels as both historical documents giving us much information on the life of Jesus, and as documents of faith, being a record of the events and teachings upon which the followers of Jesus based their beliefs and hopes. However, nowhere in the curriculum are students encouraged or influenced to make faith decisions concerning the person or nature of Jesus, his birth, life, death, or resurrection. Nowhere in the curriculum is the Bible presented as the “inspired” or “inerrant” word of God to be accepted as true and factual. That is a decision that is left to the students to decide for themselves. Rather, the curriculum simply presents the Bible as a collection of books that have had a profound impact on the history and culture of Western Civilization.
Is this curriculum perfect? No. Is it without controversy? No. But then again, show me any curriculum on any subject matter used by public schools in Texas that is perfect and without controversy. The fact of the matter is that The Bible in History and Literature meets all the requirements as set forth by the U.S. Department of Education and the Texas State Board of Education to be taught as an elective course in Texas public high schools. Instead of encouraging Christians to “lead the charge against this (curriculum) in the schools”, we should be encouraging Christians to defend this curriculum and others like it for use in our public schools.
We should remember what Paul says in Philippians 1: 18, “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” The bottom line is that the Bible is being taught at Brady High School. And because of this I praise God and rejoice!!!
Blake O’Dell, Pastor
First Baptist Church of Brady
Member, Brady ISD Board of Trustees
What about men?
Mike McNamara listed three indicators of cultural decline in the churches—women’s short hairstyles, tattoos and breast augmentation (Aug. 22). It is interesting to note that he did not mention men’s long hairstyles, tattoos or the use of steroids and Viagra.
The indicators he mentioned re-enforce the world’s idea that every time the church makes an effort to become closer to the Lord or more conservative, the first thing done is to set up new rules altering or restricting the behavior of women.
It sounds as if the writer of this letter believes if we could just get the women to become more self-effacing and drab, men would not have such difficulty living a Christian life. I’m not championing the practice of these three things. It’s just that there are other, and deeper indicators of the cultural decline in our churches. And the guilty parties are not exclusively women.
Rita Palmer
Big Spring
Them and us
I am so glad Mike McNamara (Aug. 22) so clearly pointed out the reason for problems within our churches: The need to blame “them” because they do not think and act like “us.”
Lynda Schupp
Flower Mound
A speck in our eye
America’s dropping atomic bombs on Japan to end World War II in 1945 set a precedent that has not been repeated since those fateful days 60 years ago. We can be thankful for that, but there is no guarantee that today’s more powerful nuclear weapons won’t be used on another nation in our much more dangerous world. In fact, it is much more likely than not that nuclear weapons will be used again in the not-too-distant future.
While millions are starving to death in Africa and other places, nuclear powers are racing to make more destructive nuclear weapons. There is no major movement to reduce or abolish growing nuclear arsenals. Our greatest fear, a legitimate one, is that evil terrorists will somehow acquire and use a nuclear weapon to kill multitudes of people living in one of the world’s large cities.
President George W. Bush calls the struggle against worldwide terrorism a confrontation of good versus evil. What is good about using unlimited resources to make more powerful, sophisticated nuclear weapons while hungry people are dying around the world? We will never overcome evil with good until we acknowledge that only God is good. We cannot call ourselves good until we remove the evil specks from our own eyes.
The “love of money is the root of all evil.” Who, among the world’s nations, is free from evil greed and its devastating effects? I hope civilization does not end where it began: In the land between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers.
Paul L. Whiteley Sr.
Louisville, Ky.
What do you think? Send letters to Editor Marv Knox by mail: P.O. Box 660267, Dallas 75266-0267; or by e-mail: marvknox@baptiststandard.com. Letters are limited to 250 words and may be edited to accommodate space.
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